I hope the US doesn’t invade other countries. But I would say I can be wary of both the US and China at the same time.

Almost immediately after coming to power in 2014, the Ukrainian government started banning opposition parties

There were still big pro-Russia parties so Ukrainians who liked the idea of stronger ties with Russia had parties they could vote for.

The whole situation is a tragedy and a mess.

That’s very true.

they were shut out of the political process by having their parties banned

The banning of pro-Russia parties apparently happened after Russia launched its 2022 invasion of Ukraine, so the banning can’t be a justification for the invasion.

we’re talking about grabbing people off the streets, giving them a rifle, and forcing them to the front

I hope that doesn’t happen and I hope Ukrainian people can choose whether they want to fight or not. I also think though that Russia shouldn’t be taking land and lives by force, and they also shouldn’t be trying to install their own puppet regime in Kyiv.

Okay I said maybe we shouldn’t talk about where we disagree but I think I disagree with those points about Ukraine. I think it was the elected parliament of Ukraine who voted to remove Yanukovych, rather than a “bunch of armed men” who voted. As for the Russian-backed referendums in the Donbas, I don’t trust them myself, given Russia’s history of ballot stuffing and the state deliberately harming political opponents.

I think the best outcome would be if the war immediately ends and then every oblast (in Ukraine and in Russia) could have a free and fair election regarding their future. If some Ukrainian oblasts vote in a free and fair election to join Russia then fair enough. In any case, unfortunately the war will very likely grind on.

Sure, I think Ukraine is a flawed democracy. More democratic than Russia in my estimation, but that isn’t a high bar to clear. I hope Ukrainians can vote in the near future on whether to continue the war. Or alternatively the Ukrainian government should hopefully respect the results of reliable polling.

If you think your domestic priorities are more important than foreign issues, that’s fair enough. When you claim Yanukovych’s removal from power counts as an “overthrow”, I’m not sure I agree with that, because Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from power. But anyway, maybe there is not much point in talking about where you and I disagree, because that could go on forever. I think we agree on some points, like the fact that Ukrainians are unfortunately suffering, and the fact that corporations (including defence companies) are too greedy, at the expense of hospitals and such like.

I agree with you that Ukrainians are suffering. Russians are too, under Putin’s regime. But some other points you mentioned, I’m not sure how true they are:

my government supported the overthrow of the previous government

It’s my understanding that Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove President Yanukovych in 2014. Does this count as an “overthrow”? If the US Congress were to vote to remove Trump from power, which I believe is legally possible in the US, would that be an “overthrow”?

helped bring in a new government that was unwilling to have free and fair elections

TLDR of the following paragraph is that Ukraine has had two presidential elections since Yanukovych was removed from power, and both of those elections seem to have been more democratic than Russian “elections”. Here goes: A new presidential election was held in 2014, which Poroshenko won, and then another was held in 2019, which Zelenskyy won. The OSCE, an organisation of the US, Canada, and European countries (including Russia) stated that the 2019 Ukrainian presidential election “was competitive, voters had a broad choice and turned out in high numbers. In the pre-electoral period the law was often not implemented in good faith by many stakeholders, which negatively impacted the trust in the election administration, enforcement of campaign finance rules, and the effectiveness of election dispute resolution. Fundamental freedoms were generally respected”, etc. Maybe not a perfect election, but probably better than in Russia. In a Russian “election” in recent years, “Mr Putin’s biggest critics were barred from running, and there were reports of ballot stuffing and forced voting”. Here is an article from Reuters talking about ballot stuffing in Russia.

If they had stayed out of the war, then the people of eastern Ukraine would, at the very least, be shut out of any democratic process

I think pro-Russia people could participate in Ukraine’s democracy though. Before 2014 there was the popular pro-Russia party the Party of Regions, and after 2014 there was the pro-Russia Opposition Bloc.

TLDR: I hope the war in Ukraine ends so that no more people die. I think Ukraine should be left alone to make their own democratic decisions though, without Russia invading them. The evidence that I’ve seen (news I’ve read) suggests that Ukraine, while not a perfect democracy, was relatively democratic up until Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Right now they’re not having elections because of the war. Perhaps Ukrainians should be able to decide in the near future whether they want to continue the war or not.

You can be angry about your own government and that’s completely fine. I am not a Trump fan myself. Regarding Saudi Arabia, yes there are reasons to be wary of their leadership, especially after Jamal Khashoggi’s death.

Anyway, in my original question in this thread, I just asked if a person would condemn imperialism if it was done by Russia or China, in addition to condemning similar behaviour from the US or other western countries. If the US invades a country and kills civilians there then I definitely think that’s wrong - civilians should be able to live in peace. Likewise I think it’s wrong if Russia invades Ukraine and kills civilians there. With China, they may take over Taiwan by force in the near future. Likewise if the US were to take over a territory by force (perhaps the Philippines again), I would think that’s wrong.

the US literally dominates the world by force, assassinating if not full-scale invading anybody they don’t like

China seems to aspire to this same modus operandi. They seem to want to invade Taiwan in the near future.

You might say that NYC is, functionally, a one-party city. Of course, meaningful ideological differences can exist within that party, with competitive races between them. But I suppose the fact that the Republican party technically also exists there is the thing that determines whether NYC has democratic elections or not.

It’s not that long ago that Michael Bloomberg and Rudy Giuliani were Republican mayors of NYC, but I think the last non-communist leader of China was decades ago. Before the PRC was established I would guess.

It’s very clear that you haven’t actually investigated or thought about how the Chinese system works and are just repeating lines you’ve heard.

To be honest I do trust sources like BBC News and other western sources. I know some people might say they’re pro-western biased sources. From my experience though, the BBC has been truthful and accurate. If they report on a multi-party election in China then I’ll read about it. Instead though I found this on their website:

The Chinese Constitution states that “The system of multiparty cooperation and political consultation under the leadership of the Communist Party of China will continue and develop long into the future”.

So the leadership of a single party is in their constitution. I don’t think that’s true in the US, or other western democracies.

Anyway, I’m not trying to say any particular country is bad. Countries just have differences I suppose.

spin a globe, put your finger on a random country you’ve never heard of, and look into that country’s history. You’ll almost always find the US doing something nefarious. You simply can’t say that about China.

I googled “chinese hacking” because I’ve seen articles about this before, and I came across some examples. So I think China is doing nefarious things.

Do you pay attention to mayoral races in China? Or do you just assume that they must be undemocratic and that all the candidates are bad without a second thought?

Sources like CNN and Wikipedia refer to China as a one-party state. I guess I’ll accept that this description is probably accurate, until I see news of China having national elections involving at least two competitive parties.

I think the US is a democracy, just a flawed one. The electoral college is a big flaw because it gives rural states a disproportionate amount of power. But there is still a democratic process in the US. Look at how Zohran Mamdani has become the Democrat candidate to become NYC’s mayor, despite the fact that many leading Democrats didn’t want him to be the candidate. The primary voters made their voices heard.

We can argue about the merits and flaws of China and Russia, but neither of them represent an existential threat to me as an American. Pretty much the only thing that does present an existential threat, imo, is the rise of fascism domestically.

Fair point. Here in Europe though, Russia is probably a bit more worrying. E.g. I’m not surprised that Poland wants to take a firm stance of supporting Ukraine, because Poles are probably worrying that their land might be invaded if Ukraine is taken over by Russia.

As for China, maybe we would disagree, but I think they really want to expand their power, even if that means stamping on people’s rights… for one thing it might be good if China had political freedom and democracy. China will obviously do what it wants for the time being, but I think I will remain a bit wary of what seems to be expansionist ambitions.

The only example you produced of China’s “imperialism” was settling some uninhabited islands in the Pacific

Settling islands, wanting to take over Taiwan, trying to expand their global power, making friends with other world leaders who want to expand their power, etc.

the most important conflict is class conflict, and my most immediate enemy is the ruling class of my own country

In some situations that might be true but I think it depends. In some cases, the ruling class of your own country might be investing in a military which protects you, while a foreign government might want to invade your country and oppress you. For example, if you were an American Jew in WW2 then surely the US ruling class was a better friend to you than the foreign country of Germany, who wanted to exterminate all Jews.

I’m not expecting you to say anything to China. My original point which I said in my first post in this thread was this:

would you condemn seemingly imperialist behaviour from countries like Russia and China as much as you would condemn imperialist behaviour from western countries

That’s all I’m trying to say. Surely we should hold every country to consistent standards.

Tara Reade

I just looked up that person. I do think allegations of rape should be taken seriously, although apparently this particular person may not be entirely honest, because apparently she may not have been truthful about her education: “Antioch University… disputed her claim of receiving a bachelor’s degree from its Seattle campus”. Maybe she’s still right about Biden, I don’t know.

Anyway, I’m not some MAGA supporter who mentioned Xinjiang to smear my geopolitical adversary. I was just replying to someone who mentioned “imperialism”, and I asked them if they would condemn Chinese/Russian imperialism as well as western imperialism. The reason I asked this is because I’ve seen posts from Lemmy.ml or Hexbear users where they seem to celebrate China and Russia. Arguably the current US, China, and Russia are all imperialist.

It seems it wasn’t just the NYT and the BBC who have reported on the story of China’s treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang - Der Spiegel from Germany published leaked files, as did Le Monde from France. Then other outlets like The Guardian published articles about this too.

I’ll just say what I believe: I think the leaked documents from China, showing photos of internment camps for Uyghurs, and documents saying that people escaping the camps should be shot and killed, are probably real. Multiple media outlets have reported on this. There are also the allegations of rape regarding these internment camps. I think any rape allegation should be taken seriously.

I’m really not trying to say “China bad, West good”. Not at all. But I also don’t think it’s useful to adopt an attitude of “West bad, China good”. Maybe instead we should think “every country is capable of doing bad things, and if we see a bad thing happening, then we can call it bad, no matter which country is doing it”.

I don’t think I described the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang to be a “genocide” (if I have used that word then please do correct me). Some people do use that term of course.

I think that rape and arbitrary detention of Uyghurs has probably happened though, because sources like The New York Times and the BBC have reported on it.

If someone showed me a case of those two outlets lying and not correcting themselves when challenged, then maybe I’d believe that The New York Times and the BBC are not reliable. In my experience though they’re accurate with facts, even if I might not always agree with how their journalists might spin a story.

The reeducation camps were closed years ago

I found this from Amnesty International earlier this year. It says that “Uyghur and other non-Han ethnic groups in Xinjiang have faced torture and ill-treatment, arbitrary detention and enforced disappearance”. It mentions “internment camps” and it doesn’t say those camps have been closed.

BBC was constantly airing lies of the genocidal maniacs of Isntreal, such as mass rapes during Oct 7th in an attempt to do atrocity propaganda against Palestine to justify genocide. They’re literal genocide supporters.

Here you have an interview with an openly lying genocide supporter on prime time.

The BBC airs the views of many people, but it doesn’t mean the BBC agrees with those views. E.g. they did a high-profile interview with Prince Andrew about the sex scandal surrounding him. That doesn’t mean the BBC agrees with everything Prince Andrew said.

On the topic of Israel and Palestine, I have seen Palestine’s head diplomat to the UK interviewed on the BBC, multiple times I think, such as this.

based not on independent journalism but on supposed “anonymous interviews”

Anonymous interviews are part of journalism. Some people don’t want to provide their names because they could be persecuted. Maybe you dislike the fact that the BBC is not “independent” because it’s owned by the UK government. In which case, look at the articles I provided from The Guardian and Sky News - neither of them is owned by a state.

TLDR: I don’t understand how people who are supposedly on the left try to defend human rights abuses just because they’re done by countries that aren’t allied with the US.

Hardly can you call it “colonize” when there isn’t a population in said islands. At any rate it’s much less violent than the poverty and lack of political representation that Puertoricans are imposed by the US.

Whatever you call it, I would still say it’s imperialist behaviour of China to take over islands that it doesn’t seem to have a right to. Regarding Puerto Rico, I think they should have proper representation in the US Congress. Are Puerto Ricans being interned in camps like Uyghurs in Xinjiang though?

Taking the BBC seriously on the mistreatment of Muslims in China is as laughable as taking Russia Today seriously on the mistreatment of ethnic Russians in Donetsk.

No it isn’t, because RT seems to air lies, while I don’t think the BBC does. For example, RT featured an interview with two Russian military intelligence agents who seemed to have lied to hide the fact that they poisoned Sergei Skripal in England in 2018. Can you provide an example of the BBC doing something like this?

any independent journalistic work post-2021 about mass mistreatment of Uyghurs

What is wrong with the BBC article I provided? You haven’t shown that the BBC lies or is unreliable. It looks like The Guardian has also reported on this story though and here are articles from Sky News.

your lack of concern for Ukrainian mass economic and population crisis

I genuinely am just not aware of what you were referring to. Anyway, I hope that Ukrainians and Russians can live in peace, and preferably with political freedom. The first step towards achieving this would be the Kremlin withdrawing their invasion of Ukraine. I think Ukraine should be able to make their own democratic decisions. Ideally every country should be able to make independent democratic decisions I think.

Tell me a war in which China has participated over the last 30 years

I guess the answer to my question is “no” then…

China simply doesn’t engage in remotely imperialist behaviour compared to the west

They’re colonising islands in the South China Sea which other South East Asian countries claim, even though a UN tribunal ruled that China’s claims aren’t valid. Also what should people think of seeming mistreatment of ethnic minorities in China? Of course there are examples of western countries mistreating minorities, e.g. the USA interning Japanese-Americans during WW2. I don’t know if the USA is currently doing anything similar to what is described in the article I just linked to though.

Surely since you care about Ukraine, you condemn the capitalist regime in Ukraine which led to the defunding of healthcare, education, the removal of guaranteed housing and guaranteed employment, and a massive demographic crisis of loss of life through hunger, crime, drug abuse and lack of healthcare, which killed millions of Ukrainians prematurely?

Did this happen after the USSR collapsed? I don’t know enough about Ukrainian history to be honest. I do think though that it’s probably a good idea if world borders, such as those of Ukraine currently, aren’t redrawn by force. It’s probably better to settle disputes democratically and diplomatically.

I think it’s right to say that Palestinian civilians should be able to live in peace, and it would good if poorer people can get healthcare. On the point of “imperialism”, would you condemn seemingly imperialist behaviour from countries like Russia and China as much as you would condemn imperialist behaviour from western countries? I see users from Lemmy.ml and Hexbear who defend the behaviour of Russia and China for whatever reason.

Green energy is good, but I’m sceptical of China’s intentions these days. They seem to have a pretty aggressive stance towards other countries, as seen in their handling of the nine-dash line.

I just get the sense that China is less interested in helping the whole world, and more interested in subjugating the whole world.